From Breast Cancer To Forest Bathing: A Filmmaker’s Path To Integrative Healing

A breast cancer diagnosis can compress life into appointments, lab results, and hard choices. We explore that reality and step into the woods with filmmaker Lisa Landers, whose path through stage one breast cancer led to surgery, tamoxifen, and a powerful integrative toolkit: targeted nutrition, community support, and the restorative practice of forest bathing among the redwoods.

In today's episode you will learn more about Lisa's personal healing journey as well as the power of the forest to enhance healing. The research is compelling: lower cortisol and blood pressure, improved sleep, and increased natural killer cell activity are just a few of the benefits tied to time among trees and their aromatic compounds.

Lisa also shares the creative arc behind Giants Rising, her PBS-featured film about redwoods, awe, and our relationship with forests. We close our conversation with simple ways you can step into this healing practice...like five-minute houseplant sessions, a morning sit spot before your phone, or a local guided walk—so the practice becomes yours.

As always, if this conversation resonates with you, please follow the show, share it with someone who needs a gentler path, and leave a review to help more listeners find us. Your support helps bring evidence-based, integrative tools to people navigating cancer and beyond.

Resources mentioned in today's show:

👉 Lisa's Website: https://www.forestremedy.earth/

👉 Article: Why Harvard Docs are Seeking Out Forest Bathing

👉 Study: Effect of Forest Bathing on Immune Function

👉 Study: A systematic review and meta-analysis of greenspace exposure and health outcomes

👉 Find a Forest Bathing Guide

👉 Giants Rising Film

🌿 Let's Connect 🌿

Explore Coaching

Join Us On Substack 

Watch Episodes on YouTube 

Follow Us on Instagram

Transcript

Welcome And Lisa’s Background

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Ground and Root Podcast. I'm your host and holistic cancer dietitian Deon DeTraz. I am very excited for today's episode. I have a very special guest with us today. One of my goals with this podcast is to really bring you real stories, true stories of other women and people who are moving through the cancer journey and actually using a lot of the tools we talk about on this show so that you hear in real life what it actually means to move through a journey in a truly integrative way. And our guest today has done this and she's gonna talk to you a little bit more about her journey. But what I also am really excited to bring to you today in this conversation is that through her journey, which you're gonna hear about, she also got more in touch with forest bathing. And one of the things we like to do here on this show is to bring you different tools and strategies that you can add to your toolkit. And you may or may not have heard about forest bathing before and all the different benefits and what it is. And so we're gonna explore that topic as well. So before I let Lisa come on and just say hello to all of you, I want to first introduce her and let you know that we have known each other for several years now. That's how, that's why she's here today. I was fortunate to get to meet her as she moved through this journey. And before this, Lisa has been working as an award-winning filmmaker, making documentaries and different multimedia experiences. She's been featured in many different places between Smithsonian Channel, PBS, National Geographic, Discovery, all kinds of things. And it was really through, she can tell you more about this, but it was through her journey with film that she also came to this forest bathing piece. So I think it's going to be very interesting for you to hear how all these different paths merge together and where she is now in her life and how it's supporting her. So without further ado, Lisa, thank you so much for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you about all of this as always. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Wonderful. Okay, so let's start. Of course, if there's anything else you'd like to say about your story pre-cancer, please feel free to. But I would love for us to just start with the your cancer story. Tell us what happened, like give some background on what that actually was for you.

The Diagnosis And Decisions

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Sure. I it was May 2021, and I throughout COVID had been remiss about going to get a mammogram. And I don't know what I was thinking. I was terrified. I don't think you were alone. Yeah, I think a lot of people avoiding. And then I finally went, and the radiologist who was there is happened to be a friend of mine, and he came in with this look on his face, and I went, oh crap. Yeah. And yeah, so sure enough, he knew right away there wasn't even a question. How bad is it? Was the question, right? And it launched me into this hell that a lot of people go through and of waiting and to find out. And the good news is that it turned out to be stage one, but it was very widespread. There was just a lot of small tumors, and it was only on one side, but that breast was not saveable in any way. And I do have a family history of breast cancer. So interesting because my it's my aunt, and she I don't look anything like her. I don't take after her at all. Like we, we nobody can even believe we're related. And I was just like, eh, I'm not gonna take after her. And she had gotten the testing for the BRCA and all of it. And I was like, no, it's fine. I'm not gonna get that. I got it the exact same age that she did.

unknown 3:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

And so it was a wake-up call for me, which is I feel like something that people don't talk about with the genetic stuff, which is that there's so many things they don't know yet about the genetic connections, and they haven't identified, yes, we know about BRCA, but we don't know about a lot of other things. And clearly there is a connection. And so talking to her when I had this diagnosis at also at 48, I was like, okay, what do I do? And she said she has now since had it recurred three times and gotten worse and worse each time, and then she finally had uh double mastectomy at 67 or something, and she was like, I would do it now. So they were gone. We said goodbye to them, and I did like all of these journeys, it wasn't smooth, it was I had an expander infection, I had they didn't get clean margins the first time, I had to go back in, just all the things. It was a journey, and now I take um tamoxifen every day, but thankfully I didn't have to do radiation and I did not have to do chemo because it had not spread to my lymph nodes.

Treatment Plan And Tamoxifen

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. So just to make sure too, people are clear about because the staging can be a little bit, I don't know, like it might be very esoteric if you're like, what does that mean? So yeah, basically, stage one is just that it hadn't moved beyond the breast. Like that, that's why that was that stage. And so with that stage of breast cancer, really surgery, right, is the primary recommendation as opposed to chemo or radiation. Plus, then with the tamoxifen. So tell us a little bit more about that. So were was it actually an estrogen sensitive then cancer or yes, because some sometimes the follow-up care is going to be determined on what they find on the actual cancer cells themselves, right? So yours was estrogen receptor positive.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Correct. And so I remember my I walked in and we were waiting for the pathology, the final pathology after the mastectomy to really look at everything. And she she came in and she was like, the results had just come in on her phone and she's reading it, and we're all like, ah. But she said, the good news is she said, you have chocolate chip cookie cancer. And I was like, What? She's it's like you got a lot of chocolate chips in your breast. I'm like, okay, that made it sound really nice. She said, but really she said the good news is that it is estrogen fed and activated. And so there are really good tools out there to manage it. One of which is the tamoxifen, which is, to my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's a drug that stops the uptake of estrogen into your cells.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

And specifically into the breast cells. Into the breast cells.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah. And the cool thing about this drug is that, and I'm sure you know this, that is that it's the active ingredient is derived from the giant U tree. This kind of ties into my story too, a little bit. So I'm a biomedical researcher found this active ingredient randomly in the 80s. They had been looking for things to to study, and he found this. And I now ingest a little bit of the tree defense system every day. And I haven't, I've been able to really tolerate it. And a lot of people don't tolerate it well. I have, and yeah, so it's almost five years now that I've been on it. Yeah. That's so great.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah. And it's, I think it's always nice to when you can, when you come from this perspective of wanting to do things more integrative and natural or like complementary, that when you find these little connections too, it I think it just brings, I don't know, a little bit more of a spiritual sense to like your treatment. It's not just medication I'm taking, or it's not, it's oh, this is actually coming originally came from nature, from plant medicine.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yeah. I think that has helped me find some peace with taking these heart these harsh medicines. It's still what it is, but a lot of medicines are, of course, derived from the plant world. And I think it's important to remember, and they really have their role. I think we need more besides that. I know that's what we're going to talk about today. But if I could, you know, through doing this and finding that connection, finding the story. I think I'm always looking for a story. Of course you are. You feel me? Of course I am. It's a it's a compulsion that has, you know, shaped and defined my life. Uh I needed that story and I share it all the time because yeah, I think it's just it's reassuring to me. I love that.

Food, Supplements, And Support

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I love that. So along those lines, tell us what else you did. So, as far as traditional Western treatment, you had double mastectomy and reconstruction afterwards, correct? Yeah, plus tamoxifen sense. What else did you bring in to help support your recovery?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

The very first thing is that I basically called you because I have just always been someone who really believes that food has can can destroy us and can nurture us. And and I grew up in a household like that with a mother who was like a kind of lunatic health nut, and all my friends were like, Oh God, we need to go get some Cheetos. And my mother was like, But I have salad and dressing, you know. So I think my mother would be would be very happy to hear this right now. Um, you know, that it that it sunk in, and I really have always felt that way. Not that I always stick to it, but as soon as this happened, I knew that I wanted the first thing, and I started reading more about all of the connections between the foods that you bring into your body and being able to prevent a recurrence of cancer. I think my my oncology oncological nurse directed me to use.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I know I actually forgot what our connection was. I don't remember. But it could have been, it could have been from where you were seeking treatment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Oh, it was one of the nurses during my mastectomy. I was talking about it with her, and she said, I know who you need to call.

unknown 9:59

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Thank you. Yeah, thank you, nurse. There were so many wonderful nurses along the way who helped me. And one of them was like, You should call her, but you should also have a cocktail.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, so great.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Just get to that later. Have a cocktail first. So um, yeah, I really, I really wanted to know how to use nutrition through all the different stages of what I was gonna be going through because there was the all the surgeries, and I'm not a big protein eater, like I'm mostly vegetarian, and I really I don't know, I've never been great at that. So I was like, I know I'm gonna need more protein. And then I remember you telling me, yes, you do. And I was like, How am I gonna do that? Yeah, and then and then through through all the different stages, and then the long-term prevention of it and having and it's like stuff I could have looked up, but really having the kind of one-on-one to really be specific about what was going on with me, what I was concerned about. I think I also had you check my hormones because I had no idea if I Yeah, we did do some testing.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I remember.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah, I was like, what suddenly I was being thrown into menopause, and I was like, What is this happening naturally? Is this the tamoxifen changing things? Is this it was really helpful to be able to talk about all these other things that actually my the my regular healthcare practitioners were not? And so food became a big thing. My friends, who were all of course like had organized this meal train, they're like, Is there anything you don't like? And I was like, and I sent them this list of all the foods that you had given me. I was like, anything from these lists are fine. And I think people were, oh God, what do we do with this?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, get on, get on the plan. If you want to help me, this is what I need to be eating and need this, needs to be organic, and I don't want sugar, and yeah, yeah.

Community And Emotional Anchors

SPEAKER_02 11:51

And I loosened up, but like right at that moment, it felt empowering to be able to do that. Like, okay, I am going to do this. Um, you also helped me with supplements, which I also knew to be important when I couldn't even believe it that I didn't know my vitamin D level, I had never gotten checked. And I think you had suggested that I check it, and it was like so low. And I was like, oh my gosh, this contributes. And then there's so many supplements. So just having a guide to which ones are the best that we know are really top-notch, all of that. So that became a big part of what I was doing in addition to the tamoxifen exercise, which was like, I was so cautious of everything with my body for a while. Like, and I don't know, I used to run and running, just felt weird. I still can't even really run. If I feel like my implants squeak, it's really strange, but that's just in my head, I think. Yeah. But like all these things, I just had to find my way back to exercise. But but I did in different ways. And I just knew I needed that for just for my mental, not just my physical kind of well-being. And so that became a big thing. The other thing was really that. So I had this breast cancer support group that I joined through the healthcare network done with. And I went to the first one and I was like, because I was like, all right, I guess it'll be good to connect with people. And I was horrified because like people had these stories. I was like, oh my God, people are going through a lot. Maybe this isn't for me, mine isn't so bad. But I stuck with it. And then it just became like everything to me. Like it was wonderful. We were meeting on Zoom, the facilitator, who you know, Joanna Hathaway was amazing. And everybody was just so it was beautiful and wonderful, and we cried for each other and we laughed with each other and shared the tips, and and it just became so important. So I would say community was like building a community was another big thing for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

And community, just to click just to add that piece, the community of people who actually understood what you were going through, right?

Nature As Medicine

SPEAKER_02 14:00

But like people who really understood. Exactly. Yeah, I needed both. And I, you know, because yeah, you don't know until you're in it. Yeah, for sure. You really don't, and and everybody's journey is different, but we can all find points of similarity. I actually ended up making a really close friend through this group because I didn't know where any of these women lived. And then I saw her walking down the street and we realized we lived a few blocks away from each other. And we're still friends to this day, yeah. So that that and then the last piece of what I would say has been my supplemental thing is time and nature, which has always served me, but really served me during this time at every stage.

From Filmmaking To Forest Bathing

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah. So let's let's go with that because obviously we want to talk about this more. But I'm curious what was the actual intro or like the transition or the introduction from just be spending more time in nature to actually learning about forest bathing. Tell us what was that story? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

So the crazy thing is that I in 2018 I decided that I wanted to make a documentary about redwood forests. And I live in a small redwood forest. I've always been drawn to them. I am from New York, but I've made my home among the redwoods of Northern California for 16 years now, and it just feels like home to me. And I've produced a few short segments about redwoods, like redwoods and climate change, or like the fight to preserve them. And I thought this is just a bigger story here. Like, you know, how biologically, how do they do all the things they do culturally? These indigenous cultures that are really connected to these forests. And then also, like, how are they working their magic on us? Why do I feel so good? And I use, I say redwoods, but redwoods are just like this gateway drug to feeling that connect sense of awe and connection in nature. And so, really, I've always felt that about all forests. And so I really wanted to explore that in a film. So I start going down this path, and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna do it as an independent film, I'm gonna raise money, and this all takes time, right? So it's 2018, 2019. I'd made a little trailer, COVID hits, and I was like, all right, maybe this isn't happening anyway. But I had the trailer was out there. And then in the beginning of 2021, I got someone saw the trailer and said, We want to help you make this film. It was fantastic. And then five months later, yeah, I get my breast cancer diagnosis, just record scratch, screeching halt. And I'm like, What?

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah, and so at that moment, I had already taken this really deep dive into all my research for the film. And so I had learned about this practice of forest bathing, and we can talk about that more, but just the different ways that nature heals us has been like all the scientific studies that have been done about, you know, because again, I was trying to get into that the psychology and the physiology of how nature impacts us for the fill. So I knew all of this stuff, and I had read about this practice of forest bathing. And but really what I was doing was going out into my surrounding forest and just it was the only place that I could take a full breath while I was awaiting all the various pathologies. And I really I felt like this veil had dropped over me. I felt like a zombie. But when I got into the forest, it was like it shifted my perspective just enough to take a full breath and exhale. And I would come back and go to these online groups that I love so much, and I was like, I need to take you all into the forest with me. I wish, like I could just see them. I was like, I just want you guys to just come and you know, wander, but you know, people are various stages of what they're going through, and they, you know, anyway. But that was the moment where I really thought about this practice of forest bathing where you guide people into the forest to enhance your well-being in various ways. And I was like, I think I have to take a break from my regular work right now while I'm going through all the surgeries and everything. But I think it I need to get trained to become one of these guides so I can take out all of my breast cancer people in this work group and others in a safe way, a way that makes them feel safe. Um, so that was the launch of this practice that I now offer. And I can talk a little bit more about exactly what that is.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

If that's yeah. So I yes, give me, I'm gonna just want to segue with one thing here. Sometimes, too, in retrospect, you look at the timing and everything, and you're also kind of wasn't that sort of perfect timing, just like you had just gotten this information, not that you want to go through a cancer diagnosis, but if and when it were to happen, yeah, you had this incredible tool that you got to experiment with and even have the time and space to dive deeper into becoming a certified guide. And I'm assuming you did this, right? While you were recovering from surgery and all the things.

What Forest Bathing Really Is

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Exactly. Because of COVID, these trainings had become a lot of online Zoom trainings. So it was a training that I did with 30 people from all over the world of all different backgrounds, physicians, deans of colleges. It was like this very diverse group. And we would meet and we once a week and have several hour meetings, and then we would do these sort of virtual immersions. And then we also had in person, but that came later. But I was able to do it because it was virtual. And yeah, and actually the process of learning to do it was so therapeutic for me as well. You basically

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Got to be your first student. Yeah, basically. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Okay. So explain to us because I, if this is a brand new concept for people, and you know, everybody comes to the podcast at different levels of knowledge. So some of you may already know what force bathing is. You've already read the books and like looked at all the research. You already know. Um, but if it's brand new to you, you may already have the sort of intuitive insight that just being in nature is good for us. So, like the anytime we can be outside in the sun, in the forest, in the ocean, whatever it is, is going to be good and healing. But give us a little bit more detail. Like, what's the difference between just being outside and being in nature versus actual forest bathing? What does that mean?

Science Behind Trees And Stress

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah, it's funny because when I was first even reading about it, I just I don't think I quite got it. But they before I signed up for the course, they're like, we highly recommend you go out and you do a course with a guide who's been trained through this program and make sure it's for you. And so I did that. I found someone here in Northern California, and I was like, I probably do this all the time anyway. It's I'm always in the woods. I'm hiking, I'm walking, whatever. That is not at all what I do when I go to the woods. And I was like, Oh, this is different. So basically, the idea, it's called forest bathing, and everyone says, Oh, do I need a swimsuit? No. It's forest bathing is a translation of a Japanese term, Shinri nyoku, which literally is bathing or soaking in the atmosphere of the forest. And it's a practice that began in Japan in the 80s, actually. Not that people in Japan weren't already commuting with nature in different ways for millennia, but this particular very focused kind of practice happened in the 80s as they were changing over from an economy based on agriculture to one based on technology. And everybody was getting these chronic diseases. And so the Japanese government was like, okay, what's going on? It's probably a combination of things, right? People moving less, all these things. But one of the things these studies turned up is that spending time in nature and specifically in forests among trees, um, has all of these benefits to our health, our biological health and mental. And people just weren't getting that anymore. And so the what they found is really that, like just spending like half a day in the forest, they could see they put all these monitors on people, they could see that people's cortisol levels were coming down, their blood pressure was coming down, their oxygen levels were going up, their NK killer cells that help in the fight against cancer were the activity was enhanced. So all of these things they were observing with people. And so they were like, all right, we need to start kind of writing prescriptions for people to do this. And so the way that it's my understanding that the way that it was really done in Japan and maybe still is kind of loose. Like, you know, you there are certain parks that are designated as places where people can go and just really be among the trees, but with some prompts to help guide their time there. The program that I did is inspired by this Japanese practice, but it's a it's more hands-on in terms of the guiding. And so basically, what I do is I bring people, I gather a group of people, can be anywhere from five to twenty people usually, and we spend about two and a half to three hours in the forest, and I take them through a very intentionally choreographed series of moments. And and it's a combination of, you know, uh, well, the the most important thing I should say is that what we like to do is get people to experience the forest through all of our senses, right? It's like we go into the forest half the time and we're talking to our friends or we're thinking our minds running, what are we having for lunch?

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Or listening to a podcast, or listening to a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

What if we just go into the forest and just be? And a couple of things, you know, can happen, right? So it slows us down, it gives us that time in the forest so we can soak up all of these organic compounds that we know are coming down from the trees, and that is what is impacting us physiologically. But by tuning into our senses and slowing down, we're also, of course, doing all of these things for our mental well-being, right? There's a social psychologist who I interview for the film from UC Irvine who talks about the time in trees is shown to reduce the inflammatory cytokines, which are linked to stress, right? And that they've done a lot of studies around what people report. We feel more content, we feel less stressed, less anxious, that people sleep is better. It's a lot of things that we know, but like now the science is there, which is super exciting. It also spending time makes us more compassionate and cooperative. All of these studies are happening. So all this good stuff is happening, but we are also trying to take it to a next level and have you really use this opportunity, get back in touch with your body and let nature be the key to unlocking your senses. And so we spend about two and a half to three hours, and we have moments where people get sent off on their own for 15 minutes with a prompt, go explore the textures of the forest. And it's really an invitation to get into your child play mind. It's permission to play in the woods, right? Like when do we give ourselves time or permission to do that fairly? And so it's a series of those kinds of exercises where people come out, we come back, and when they come back, we invite people to share. So it becomes this community experience. And with people who don't know each other who are sharing kind of these intimate reflections about wow, when I looked at this tree, it made me think of whatever it is. It's really simple. And I always say to people, like, you can totally do this on your own, just like you can do a yoga class on your own. But having a guide there just to keep you on track, it just takes the pressure off you having to think of what am I doing next, or what what's here, what do I have to think about? And it's also for a lot of people who don't like to go and spend time in the woods on their own, especially. It it makes it a safer experience.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

I am there, I am holding this safe container, especially for people who are going through cancer treatment, who are maybe still a little concerned about their bodies and you know, their or even just nervous about their strength, their energy, like right, their balance, like things like this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Exactly. So I am holding, I am always there, they know where I am, and it's just really cool to be in community in a forest with people you don't know. I just feel like there's also so much, you know, divisiveness right right now, right? Just society that um it's just a moment of like feeling our shared humanity, yeah, which is the natural world. And there's something, this overlay of stress I think that everybody has around that kind of stuff, and that gets dissipated.

Safety, Access, And Guided Walks

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, it's and it's how beautiful to create connection around nature, too, which I think really takes us back to our evolutionary roots. This is what we did. We lived much closer to nature in community, and it's almost like this cellular memory gets triggered, perhaps, in our beings of oh, this is actually really familiar and good, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

That um the social psychologist, um, Dr. Paul Piff, he talks about this. He's yeah, there's something ancestral about being with the trees, right? We can't, he's what what is it? Is it it's something in our DNA, but there's something that triggers us to feel a sense of awe in nature, and that is probably linked to some kind of survival strategy, right? If you connect the dots, it's because it makes us healthier, it makes us feel more connected, which leads to more higher functioning societies and all of these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

It's interesting. The so I have a couple of thoughts I wanted to share. First is the episode we just had before this one. So when we air this, the the episode that's gonna be right before is actually me talking about seasonal wellness and winter, like preparing for winter. And part of that is being a little bit more connected to nature. So you're actually noticing what's happening in the earth around you. It's this idea of earth-based living, but in a modern world. Like, how do we infuse some of these, again, like ancestral ways into our modern day life? And I think spending time in the forest, in nature, forest bathing is one of the ways that we retune our energy, our systems to like what we evolved with, right? There is this like memory, and it can create greater balance in our bodies, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, like all of it, right? Community-wide. So I really love it for that reason too. It's giving you permission to get back into nature, to making time to be in nature again. But I think there's also just like the practicality, and I'm curious as Forest Bathing Guide, for somebody to get started with this concept of just like spending time, spending two hours, spending three hours, spending a half a day in nature. What how do we do this? Like, how do we get to that point?

SPEAKER_02 30:05

For just I have a couple of thoughts about that. Okay. If you are, I love this term, time affluent, and you can make space in your schedule to sign up for one of these uh guided forest bathing experiences. There are practitioners all over the world in every state. There's a wonderful network. And I think it is a great way to get going. But what I um and all these practitioners also want everyone to do is to take away from this set of tools that you can use to be able to do this practice, even if it's just five, 10 minutes, even if it's with the tree in your front yard or a big house plant.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

I know I was gonna say, I feel like I remember you talking to me about house plants and how you can even begin to co-regulate with a house plant.

Bringing The Practice Home

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Right? You can, absolutely, absolutely, and it's just about going sense by sense and tuning in and taking that moment to take in this connection with this plant through your through touch, through smell, through sight, through just being, just looking closer, just taking that moment and it just brings you back into connection with your body through your senses, it brings your heart right down. It's and and so when you can feel yourself spiraling into that, oh my God, I'm waiting for test results or whatever it is, yeah, you can find your way back to it. And so this is the start of the tools, and you don't need to first go on an official forest bathing thing, but I think it does help to have someone kind of be your guide that first time. Again, it's I always use the yoga class thing. Once you know how to do the yoga moves and you know the different forms and it feels familiar, then you go do it by yourself. That's fine. Yeah, but I do think it helps to get started that way, which kind of brings me to the next point, which is it's just it's not feasible for a lot of people. It's not accessible, it can be costly to sign up for one of these experiences. And um so my dream and my hope is to figure out a way to get more healthcare providers or networks to be offering this a guide, some guided sessions and then a kind of toolkit to continue on your own to everybody without having so that it's something you're not paying for, or you're paying like you would pay for a prescription for a drug, right? I just, you know, and more and more physicians are starting to think about this. There was just a great article in the Washington Post about a physician at Harvard who took the same exact training course that I did, actually with the exact same instructor. And now they have partnered up and they are training physicians at a hospital in Boston affiliated with Harvard to and taking them on retreats to learn this practice to be able to then share this with patients and give this guidance to them and yes, yeah, yeah, that's the direction we need to be headed.

Finding Guides And Building Access

SPEAKER_00 33:17

More of that. Yes, 100%. And I will say from my even just my own personal experience, since having met you, learning about forest bathing, I'm lucky enough that I used to live in the Redwoods too, like you, when we were in California. Yeah, not so many redwoods in France, unless they've been imported over. They're few and far between. But I am lucky enough to live on a property with forest and I spend, I go in the forest every day, but it's not, you know, it's usually like for a walk. There's kind of like an intention, it's not as long. So I know I'm getting nature time pretty much every day, but it's not the same. And so a couple of years ago, I did have the opportunity to run a retreat where we brought in a forest bather, a forest bathing guide, thanks to you. You had given us that recommendation, actually. And it was a very different experience. So saying that just as like a person experiencing a guided forest bathing session with uh maybe like five or six other women, it was powerful. It there was a lot of, I mean, there was a very different experience to just be in the forest without like we're not exercising, right? We're not like going somewhere. We're literally just being in a beautiful spot. We happened to find a spot next to a creek, too, which was like really lovely. And then just as you said, she gave us little prompts and things, and we did, and we brought things back to the group, and so many insights came, so many aha's for a lot of these women where there were tears shed. Like it was a very cathartic experience. So I'm just saying all this to like second, if you have the opportunity to do an actual guided session where you live or on retreat, maybe you and I will be able to offer that again real soon. I hope. Um please. But I do believe that yes, what you're saying, like it is good to have the full experience. And I'm wondering, and this is something we can link to in the show notes, but if somebody wanted to research, like how do I find a guide? Is there a website or how do how does that work in finding someone?

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah, it's not great. There is a like a forest bathing finder service. I have not had great luck with it. Been a couple of attempts to bring everyone together to be at one searchable place. But the this organization, the it's called anft.earth. That's their website. That's the training organization. And for a long time, they had a like a kind of map that you could go into and see where there were guides and get information. And I am signed up there. I don't, it's not always like spot on in terms of being up to date, but that's one place you can go. I also just encourage anyone to go to my site because if you reach out to me and you tell me you're in Ohio, I have this incredible network through this training program, and I can put it out through just all of my Facebook groups and stuff and help find you a person. And again, there are other types, there are other organizations that do this training, and everyone's a little different. I chose this one because it's it's international in terms of the network. It's I really liked their methodology, really resonated with me. And that's how I found the person you worked with. And they've been doing it for nearly 15 years, I think. And so there's just they've really refined it. So I highly recommend going through this organization. Okay.

Daily Practice And Monthly Walks

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah. And of course, if anybody's in the Bay Area of California, you can actually connect with Lisa directly and be guided by her, which would be really lovely. So we'll make sure to have your website and this organization's link. So if people want to explore further, they can, as well as some links to the research, because it is really well documented, how something as seemingly simple as just being in nature can enhance your health and ultimately help you heal if you're still moving through something like cancer from all the different things that we talked about, but not the least being just to like lower stress and anxiety and right, helping you be just calmer in your body. That's a huge benefit.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah. I mean, it's a I would say it's easier to like turn on the TV and just think, oh, I'm gonna take a rest this way. Yeah. But it's not revitalizing. We know that. Then you just sink deeper into the couch. It doesn't help. It's even if it's like cold, especially when it's cold. And you were talking about the seasonal stuff. I find that I'm always like, oh, I don't want to go out in the forest this morning. It's so cold. But it's magic. It's magic. I feel invigorated. I feel everyone gets something they need from the forest. The forest seems to know what you need. And I I feel like that's everyone finds their thing when they're willing to spend a little time to just receive whatever the forest wants to give you.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

I'm curious too, Lisa, after having several years with this practice now, like what does it look like for you at this point? Like, how have you integrated it just into your day-to-day or your weekly? Or what does it look like?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah. So for my personal practice, I go, I have a morning practice where I go outside every morning before I look at my phone, before I do anything. I have a place that I sit in a fairy ring, which is a circle of redwoods, which I happen to have in my yard. It's just I still can't believe I live in this place. It's magic. Yeah.

unknown 38:47

It's magic.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

It's a second growth forest. So they're tall and skinny, but I have a seat in there. And I just, I just notice what's around me. I mean, I literally I I I'm lucky if I get 10 minutes before I start to feel like, okay, I need to go back in. But that as often as I can, I do that sort of sit practice in the morning. And I love observing the changes of the seasons. And people joke about Northern California.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Ah, there are no seasons. Oh, there are seasons. Yeah, they're just more nuanced.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So that's my kind of daily practice. And then whether or not I people have brought, because people hire me to do like sometimes I'll bring up breast cancer groups and physicians link to the cancer networks that I have plugged into. But I always offer once a month what I call a community walk. And I do it in a forest right near my house. And whether there's nobody and it's just me or it's 20 people, I do it. And just because I know how much the practice serves me. So I pick one morning each month and offer it to and do like a full three hour, like a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

That's yeah.

Giants Rising: The Film

SPEAKER_02 39:58

We do yeah, usually about two and a half hours. Yeah. And so I put it out there and yeah. And then it's I I'm still doing my filmmaking. I'm working on a couple new projects, all nature related, because this is mostly what I do and what I love. Um, but yeah, I am really looking for more ways to bring forest bathing to more people, make it more accessible. And I love when people watch films that I make about nature, but really what I want is for them to actually get out there.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

To get out there.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

That's why I do this. I want I want to show you how cool it is and hope that you will go out there and make that same kind of connection. Or remind yourself of that connection because most people have had that connection, right? Yeah, of course. Exactly. Just remember, remember how good that connection feels. And it's and it's just the best free side effect free prescription out there.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

100%. And you, I know this, but our listeners might not know this. So after all of this journey you've gone through, you did end up finishing the film, correct? Like you did make the film and people can see it. Tell us about the film.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yes. So the film finally got finished. We actually finished it the beginning of 2024 and it premiered at a festive film festival then. And then for a year and a half, it was touring film festivals, which is great. And it got great response. I had amazing conversations with people about red, not just redwoods, but about trees and forests and healing and all of these things. And it just last month it went live on PBS. So anybody can see it on you can go to PBS.org or if you have the passport, which is their streaming subscription. It's called Giants Rising, and that's another website we can share with people. Okay. And then also I encourage people to organize screenings for their communities. And we're partnered with an organization called Good Docs that helps make that happen. And I sometimes I people bring me out, and so we can have conversations and do forest bathing as part of a kind of experience instead of just watching. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we do a mix. So it's out there in the world, and it was a journey. But I all of this stuff happened in the midst of this journey. And like you said at the beginning, I think sometimes there's a reason why things happen at the certain timing, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah, like it was almost designed that way. And is the film just about forest bathing or like also just about redwoods or telling me?

SPEAKER_02 42:42

It's not really about okay. It's really just about the the awe and wonder of Redwoods. And like I said, it's I wanted to tell the epic tale of these trees, which is really the tale of our relationship with our forests, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

The good, the bad, the ugly. And also, though, through the lenses of different ways that people find their connections to forests. And I Redwoods, again, as a sit-in for any kind of forest, but so we have scientists talking about their connection to the Redwoods. We have an indigenous group, the largest tribe in California, the Euroc and their can their connections to it. And then also I have got that social psychologist who's weaving this all through about just ordinary people. There's a photographer using her art to try to capture it and bring the awe to people through her art, the awe of the forests. It's about all of these things, but really just reminding us of the gifts of the forest and how incredible they are. And also giving people a chance to look under the hood of these forests and to understand how they do all the incredible things they do. They they're the tallest trees on earth, they are among the longest lived, they all of these things. And it's with the Redwoods again. I go back to this gateway drug analogy. It's when you put your hand on a tree that has been alive for 1500 years, you get a feel there's something, it's like looking up at a starry sky, right? It's just that ooh, it's this sort of sense of smallness, this sense of passage of time, and it feels good.

Awe, Redwoods, And Timelessness

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Yeah. It makes me as you're saying all this, because the last time I was in California visiting, we did go through the Redwood National Forest, and I was just like, I we gotta get back there. There's there's something very magical about being around the Sequoyas. They're just really and I love all forests, not discriminating, but it's it is next level, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yeah, I think so, I think so as well. And I so I'll have to throw out one little thing that this one of the scientists I work with who also feels a very deep kind of spiritual connection to the forest that we talk about in the film. And he's been studying Redwood since he was like 15. And he I finished the film and he was like, calls me up and he's like, Lisa, you gotta open up the film again. We just discovered the coolest thing. And I was like, Oh my god, I cannot. It's been like one more five years. Yeah. I was like, but tell me, lay it on me. And then I often share this because it didn't make it into the moment, but I do share it, which is that he and his team found a redwood clone. So redwoods reproduce by cloning themselves. So when you see like rings of trees, it's usually generations of trees sending out these sprouts and shooting up. And he, and so it looks like it's many trees, but it's actually one organism, just one. And so they found the largest clone ever document, and it's an acre and a half, it has 280 trees. And then he's a redwood geneticist, so he was able to uh update it to find out when that first seed germinated that gave rise to these 280 chunks 30,000 years ago. Oh my god. So imagine standing in that forest with that knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Where is that forest? It's like San Mateo. Wow. I don't know the exact tour. I was gonna say, have you done a guided tour there? It's very, they're very secret. People have keep asking me, and he's like, uh-uh.

Closing Thoughts And Resources

SPEAKER_00 46:18

I also get it, like you don't want too many people to come. Yeah, I understand. But wow, that's that's incredible. Yeah, oh this has been so fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I'm assuming obviously a big piece that you've taken, we'll say, from your cancer journey and your healing and your long-term plan is really this like time in nature and forest bathing and having community around nature. Is there anything else you would like to add or say before we wrap up? I think we I think we covered it. Yeah, good. Great. Thank you so much for your time, Lisa. I really appreciate it. And I hope it was inspiring to others. And like I said, we'll have the links in the show notes. So if you're curious and you want to go on a forest bathing guide or you want to start implementing some of these tools, we'll have some resources for you. And as always, if you're enjoying the content that we're sharing here on this podcast, I would love if you would share it with your family and friends. We're still a new podcast. And so the more you can help us spread the word, the more we can get this information in the ears of more people. And I would be so appreciative. And thank you so much for being here. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode. Bye, everyone.